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Preschool if not potty-trained?


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#1 Smurk

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:08 PM

Hi there

I have got an appointment with my daughter's teacher tomorrow. She starts preschool this thursday. We have got toilet issues with her (some days great, some days like today with 8 wet undies). Should I mention it to the teacher? Could it prevent my daughter from going to school? Are there laws on that topic?

Thanks!
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#2 dutch

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:15 PM

I'm not sure if their are laws, but I know my DD's kinder has a policy that they can't start 3 year old until they are TT'ed, not sure on 4 year old.

#3 Smurk

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:19 PM

I forgot to tell, my daughter is 4.5 yo.
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#4 Bec8112

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:20 PM

Does TT'ed mean no nappies or no accidents? My DS goes to daycare not preschool and there are some says he is great amd others a set of wet clothes. When I pick up his wet clothes there are usually 4-5 other kids with wet clothes containers.

Kids of any age can have accidents so do not think they should be able to exclude a kid for wet clothes.

Maybe mention it to them and say she needs reminding/help to go to the toilet? That's what my daycare do, they know my son is shy and does not ask to go to the toilet but will go to the toilet if asked.

Hope that helps.



#5 Jess

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 06:42 PM

I would mention it too. Wouldn't it be discrimination to not allow them to go? I understand there are other implications on the schools side(ie a carer having to take time out from the rest of the class to change wet clothes; no access to nappy changing facilities etc etc), but if it's only some days then perhaps going to school with other kids whom go to the toilet independently and at regular intervals might help her get into the swing of things a little better? Fwiw miss 6 still has the occasional accident at home but to date has not had 1 at school.

#6 dutch

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 07:49 PM

I agree that it's worth mentioning, more so as it allows the teachers to have the opportunity to help the kids, prompting them every so often do they need to use the toilet etc.
I think accidents are fine, it's just if kids are still in nappies full-time as they don't have the staff numbers or facilities to deal with that.

#7 randmdavidson

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Posted 07 February 2012 - 09:48 PM

I've never heard of any actual laws on the topic...
I think you'll find that having a convo with the teacher perhaps before she starts would be a good way to go about it - so you can both have a plan about how to go forward with her toilet training. I have worked as a TA and the more information from parents, the better. As dutch has said, prompting, helping, supporting and encouraging etc...
I don't think it will prevent her from going to school at all. When my eldest started kindy there was a child in there still in nappies. I don't think it's unusual that that age, it's very important for the teachers to be aware though. All the best!!!!

#8 Smurk

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 06:30 AM

Thanks a lot for your answers! I have got that appointment in half an hour, I will mention the accidents. ;)
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#9 Jenn

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Posted 08 February 2012 - 08:43 AM

I'd mention it, but also remember it'll be a different environment so maybe she wont have any issues anyhow :)

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#10 Smurk

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 03:46 PM

Hi there

I don't know what to do with my daughter... She is going to preschool twice a week. At home, she isn't wearing nappies but, if she wears anything (I mean, even very thin underwears!), she won't "feel it" so she will wet herself. If she isn't wearing anything, she feels it and goes to the toilets. Of course, I can't send her to school bottom naked. She is 4 and a half now. She used to go to school with normal (light) underwears and would regularly have them wet (just a bit wet). But them it would start smelling and the teacher complained and asked me to do something about it. So I added a little disposable liner in her undies and it seemed to be OK. But at some point my daughter must have realised it was like a nappy, and she stopped "holding it" and started make real big wees in her undies (which of course were completely wet). So once again the teacher complained and asked me to put pull-ups nappies on her. [can you see the vicious circle? we had a very little problem and the more the teacher interfered the worst the problem became...]
Anyway. So today I send her with normal undies and, in her bag, pull up nappies and normal undies, and tell the teacher to do whatever she wants. My daughter wets her pants, the teacher put her in a pull-up nappy. Two hours later, my daughter of course hasn't been to the toilets (because she doesn't try to hold it at all when she wears a nappy -- what are the teachers thinking? do they really think that wearing nappies will solve the problem? O_o), and she makes a big poo. And that's when it becames interesting because the teacher never told me that she wouldn't handle a nappy. So she called me and asked me to come and "do something about the nappy".
What should I do tomorrow? I don't want to put pressure on my daughter. The first thing I did when we arrived home was to remove her nappy, and she is doing fine. But for how long? How couldn't she be all messed-up in her head with all these strange things that we try with her? When she started school, I told the teacher that we have been working on it for nearly two years and last year her teacher asked me to try this and that and so on for one year, for nothing. The only result was that she wasn't more potty-trained but more sad and I was more stressed, and noone was happy. The teacher (this year) said yes yes, but obviously she didn't hear me and she doesn't care about my daughter.
So here it is again... Are there really laws against not-potty-trained children to attend school? What should I do with her? Prevent her from going to school? Maybe next funny thing they will want me to try is euthanasia... :sweat:

Edited by Smurk, 22 March 2012 - 03:46 PM.

Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#11 Jenn

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 05:59 PM

Awwwh!! Your poor DD(and you!). It sounds like a huge struggle.. Could you keep her home a few weeks?

I have a few questions, coming from someone who has a small bladder, wet the bed for a really long time, and now has a daughter with similar issues.

Have you tried to chart her wee and measure it? If you can keep her home, in undies, and encourage her to go to the toilet every 45-65 minutes(if not more frequently), maybe into a potty, and measure it(in ml), also charting when she wets herself and how much(a little, soaked, whole bladder etc). In addition to charting her output, chart her input. What sort of liquid she's drinking, how much, and when.

Once you do that for at least 3 days you should have an idea as to her patterns, and how much on average she's voiding. This will give you an idea of how her bladder is going - how much it's holding and how often she needs to go. You can then encourage her to go BEFORE that point(esp if she's initially wetting before making it to the toilet), and tell the kindy teachers to take her/ask her to go(not just "do you need to go", but "please go sit on the toilet and try") at the same intervals.

I'd say, considering her age, this would be the best option for helping her if she is still so inconsistent and/or incontinent with nappies on. I'd avoid nappies as she does know how to go to the toilet.

Does that make sense? Sorry, I have a migraine and it's so hard to think clearly/write what you're thinking!!!

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#12 Smurk

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:02 PM

Thanks for your reply.
Wouldn't it be putting a lot of pressure on her? Because we have tried so many things already... I don't want to try more things, I want her to find self-confidence again (which we, I, destroyed with all these things). I understand the reason why I would try that, but I am afraid it would be even more disturbing for her. No? I mean, initially I was just wondering what I could do to make it possible for her to go to school, I don't want to potty-train her if she isn't ready.
Also, I am reading things over the internet, every second page blames parents for sending children to school in nappies because they are too lazy to potty-train. Now I understand why they just don't believe me when I tell them (teachers and so on) that we are taking this seriously and we have tried a lots and we know want her to do it herself. I just feel so angry (not against my daughter of course), because there is nothing I can see for my daughter in that educational context. If she wants to go to school, she has to "comply" with the normal things and whatever who she is and how she is doing, there is nothing personal, she is just one more number for them.
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#13 keziopia

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Posted 22 March 2012 - 07:14 PM

OK, i finally have the kids in bed and can come back and reply properly.

The advice i give is based on the assumption that your child does not have any sort of developmental or learning delay.

Firstly- get rid of the pull ups for day use. You are right that this is confusing her and giving her a false sense of security.
Secondly- make a time to sit down with your daughters teacher and work out a plan so that you can be consistent with how you both help your daughter use the toilet. As early childhood professionals they should have knowledge and strategies to help your daughter while in their care.
thirdly- the easter holidays could give you a really good opportunity to to establish new toileting habits, like undies, stickers, ready for a fresh start next term

There are some easy things to do, with my children, every 30-45 min i would either ask them if they wanted to go to the toilet, or insist that they go to the toilet (eg. say, "once we finish this game it is time to go to the toilet". Frequently offering the toilet will train her body to control when she wee's and then once that is mastered, you can give her the skills to judge when she feels like she needs to go to the toilet.
There is no harm in reminding or offering the toilet. At 4.5yo children are still very impulsive and can often get so caught up in an activity that they simply forget or ignore the signs.
Also once she has had a drink- encourage her to go to the toilet soon after as it can be a great trigger.

Huge hugs hun, some milestones are harder than others xx

#14 Smurk

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 11:37 AM

Thanks for your help, Jenn and Keziopia.
I had a big fight with my husband last night (about that issue), and then we have talked a lot about it, so I feel much much better. It was very hard for me to be the only one "responsible" about these toilet issues, I didn't know why I had no support from my husband. Now I know. We are starting a new approach, based on what he wanted to do from scratch (and since I didn't want, he got upset and never involved again... talk about being childish...) and what you adviced here.
I still don't think it's a good thing to do BUT we have tried everything else and my (younger) son is potty trained, so I can see that all kids are different and maybe she really needs that violent approach to potty-training.
I have talked to the teacher this morning, and she advices me to go and see a doctor, just in case there is any physical problem. What do you think?
Anyway, thanks a lot!
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#15 Jenn

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 04:26 PM

What sort of approach are you going to take?

Seeing a gp might be beneficial if she's having leaking or urgency, but most hospitals won't see a child for scanning etc until they are 7 or 8 years old and still wetting the bed.

Good luck!!

(null)

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#16 keziopia

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 09:08 PM

Good luck with your new approach.

As she is older she i am sure she will be really responsive to a positive and supportive approach, and it is great that your DH is on board too.

Yes, seeing a doctor is a good idea- even if you know everything is ok- it will take away any doubt :

#17 Smurk

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 08:41 PM

Sorry, it took me forever to get back to you about it...
You are talking about being positive and supportive. I don't think we are positive at all. I just do it because my husband wanted to, but I really don't think it's a good thing. We tell her regularly to go to the bathroom. If she wets her pants, we put her on the potty for one hour. She is punished but "nicely", she has books and drawings and she can call us to discuss etc. I hate myself for doing that, but I guess my daughter needs two parents more than she needs one supportive parent.
We have seen a GP last week, she thinks my daughter has no problem, she reckons we should try the charts and usual things. I am still happy we have been to see her, because now I can tell the school that she is alright.
I didn't try to measure the input/ouput, though it sounds quite smart. I just didn't have the time & energy to do it yet. I guess I will do it soon, since we are not going too fast on the potty road. By the way, what should I do when she says no? I tell her to go to the bathroom when I am pretty sure she needs to. She says no, I don't want to, she crosses her arms and makes the upset face. Then I say "you have to go, it's bathroom or nappy!" (of course I already told her about the real reasons why she should use the bathroom, I just don't want to do it all the time, ten times a day...). Then she moans and growls. If I agree for her not to go to the bathroom, then she waits her pants. If I got upset and really wants her to go to the bathroom, at the end I just shout and get angry: she goes to the bathroom, she does her wee-wee, I congratulate. And one hour later, it's all again the same story.
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#18 Merla

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:44 PM

I must have read that wrong, your not forcing a 4 year old to sit on the potty/toilet for an HOUR if she has an accident?!?

An hour, wow, even in highschool most classes are kept to 45-50min as a teenagers attention span doesn't last much longer than that. At 4 I think 2-5minutes would be long enough to get the "punishment" if that is the intention.

Your daughter needs support more than she needs two parents.

Also perhaps have a look at other causes for accidents.

http://www.scienceda...20127135757.htm

Edited by Merla, 04 April 2012 - 02:47 PM.


#19 EmmasMummy

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 08:53 PM

I havent read all the post but my DD 3 and half .... is in the eldest pre school room at her school.... she is perfectly TT at home... but been going for 2 months and hasnt used the toliet there yet.... either holds or has an accident... They dont care at all.... and Ive seen kids there in nappies still.

#20 EmmasMummy

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:14 AM

View PostSmurk, on 02 April 2012 - 08:41 PM, said:

Sorry, it took me forever to get back to you about it...
You are talking about being positive and supportive. I don't think we are positive at all. I just do it because my husband wanted to, but I really don't think it's a good thing. We tell her regularly to go to the bathroom. If she wets her pants, we put her on the potty for one hour. She is punished but "nicely", she has books and drawings and she can call us to discuss etc. I hate myself for doing that, but I guess my daughter needs two parents more than she needs one supportive parent.
We have seen a GP last week, she thinks my daughter has no problem, she reckons we should try the charts and usual things. I am still happy we have been to see her, because now I can tell the school that she is alright.
I didn't try to measure the input/ouput, though it sounds quite smart. I just didn't have the time & energy to do it yet. I guess I will do it soon, since we are not going too fast on the potty road. By the way, what should I do when she says no? I tell her to go to the bathroom when I am pretty sure she needs to. She says no, I don't want to, she crosses her arms and makes the upset face. Then I say "you have to go, it's bathroom or nappy!" (of course I already told her about the real reasons why she should use the bathroom, I just don't want to do it all the time, ten times a day...). Then she moans and growls. If I agree for her not to go to the bathroom, then she waits her pants. If I got upset and really wants her to go to the bathroom, at the end I just shout and get angry: she goes to the bathroom, she does her wee-wee, I congratulate. And one hour later, it's all again the same story.



:S ..... I wouldnt punish at all ...... weeing a normal bodily function .... and your punishing her for it..... one day its just clicks.... yes its stressfull ...and yeah Ive punished also ... but it never works.... positive support when she does teh right thing always works best here.

#21 EmmasMummy

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 06:20 AM

ok read all of it now ....... geez your school sounds horrible..... what exactly do they want you to do about any of those things..... I would take her out and take her somewhere who will look after her needs.

#22 logansmumma

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 11:34 AM

Is she at school or daycare? If she's at school then toileting is not the teachers job. Yes they help clean up if they have the odd accident but if she isn't properly toilet trained then it makes things pretty difficult in class. I know a little boy the same age who goes to school with no undies on. He never wore them at home and no matter what mum tried he would not wear them at school.
I don't think making her sit on the potty for an hour is going to help things.

#23 safarifun

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Posted 10 April 2012 - 10:57 AM

Woah! 1 hour punishment? Are you for real? She is only 4!!!

My miss2 is a handful behaviorally but time out is 1 min per age. She should be having 4 minutes not 60. She will forget the reason & no lesson will be learnt. I'm sorry but she needs your support, not unfair discipline. Especially if she physically struggles with going to the toilet. That's cruel. :(

#24 Smurk

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:40 PM

I know it's awful. I feel so bad about it. I am not at all that kind of mother, I just feel awful each time we ask her to go to the potty. And I don't especially think it's working, I think it's just plain stupid. I have tried to be supportive and positive for a long time, but my husband got upset when I refused to follow his parents advices (leaving her on the potty etc). Last time we had that huge argument, we have reached the conclusion that we should try. My reason for trying is that it will get my husband back on track with her, he won't just stop caring about her and blaming me about all the bad things. His reason for trying that is that his parents told so, his parents are great, his parents should be listened.
When I am home alone with her and she has an accident, I ask her to go to the potty and she can go away after she has done something. I don't think she has ever stayed one hour on the potty. I don't know what to do, I feel very bad. I used to feel bad about the pressure which was put on me by other people (teachers etc), now I feel bad because I just do the wrong things.
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)

#25 Smurk

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Posted 11 April 2012 - 09:46 PM

I also must add that my daughter loves reading and drawing, she doesn't especially feel punished when she is on the potty. If she hadn't had an accident, she would do the same (read and draw) - just sitting somewhere else. That doesn't give more sense to that potty training thing, but at least I am not physically or emotionally being too violent with her.

It's a bit hard too, because I have anger problems. I can be very violent verbally. I try to do lots of things to avoid situations when I would "harm" my kids with my words. I thought that trying my husband idea on potty training would release some of the pressure I feel (from others), but that's not working because I replaced it with my own pressure. I don't know how to explain...
Sorry for the possible mistakes. English is not my native language. ;)





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