71 replies to this topic

[dormouse]

Hi all,
I am just wondering of any of you can point me in the right direction of some good, clear information on the pros & cons of circumcision please?
My SIL is due to have a baby boy in a few weeks & has raised the question of circumcision. She wants to get it done, but only because (and I quote) "i dont wana be cleaning my little mans bizzy bits till hes bigger".
I have very strong opinions on the matter, but she seems gungho so I want to try to spam her with as much info as possible so she can make a proper informed decision.

I obviously don't want to start a debate, so no conversation will be entered into on the the matter, I was just hoping you girls might be able to provide some good info as I haven't been able to find what I want on Google.

So spam me!

[mum2_1]

Try searching a current affair or today tonight......I can't quite remember but I know one of them held a debate about it last year some time (at least I think it was one of them??) and there were a lot of links/info from it

Edited by mum2_1, 15 April 2010 - 09:20 PM.

[Titania]

mum2_1, on 15 April 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Try searching a current affair or today tonight......I can't quite remember but I know one of them held a debate about it last year some time (at least I think it was one of them??) and there were a lot of links/info from it

Oh god no, don't do that! Not exactly objective info.

I'll do some research tomorrow.

But in the mean time - trying not to get emotive (I'm SO anti-circumcision) - ""i dont wana be cleaning my little mans bizzy bits till hes bigger" - if she doesn't have him circumcised, she won't be cleaning his bits! You don't even start having to clean their - ahem PENISES - until they are at least three or four - (depending on how detached their FORESKIN is) - and at that age - you teach them to do it themselves. It can actaully be dangerous before the age of 3 or so, and most paeds recommend a bit later than this. We haven't touched DS2's - who is 2.5. But 4.5 year old is just starting to do his own. We've never done it for him - it's just not necessary.

I think you are so right in trying to educate your sister- well done. She sounds completely ignorant.
Ask her how she'd like her labia removed - to make her cleaner. (sorry, it is so barbaric, I find it difficult to refrain).

Edited by Titania, 15 April 2010 - 09:30 PM.

[SusanKP]

mum2_1, on 15 April 2010 - 09:20 PM, said:

Try searching a current affair or today tonight......I can't quite remember but I know one of them held a debate about it last year some time (at least I think it was one of them??) and there were a lot of links/info from it

I am just subscribing to this thread as I want to know too. The links that the 'today tonight' have may be ok you will have to be careful as to where they come from but I find generally that these shows are very biased and not excatly reliable material.

[mum2_1]

Titania, on 15 April 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Oh god no, don't do that! Not exactly objective info.

oh I wouldn't have a clue what links/info was on it - I had already done all my research and long made the decision by the time the debate happened, I just remembered someone telling me that they had got info from it. It was just a suggestion

Edited by mum2_1, 15 April 2010 - 09:36 PM.

[Titania]

mum2_1, on 15 April 2010 - 09:36 PM, said:

Titania, on 15 April 2010 - 09:28 PM, said:

Oh god no, don't do that! Not exactly objective info.

oh I wouldn't have a clue what links/info was on it - I had already done all my research and long made the decision by the time the debate happened, I just remembered someone telling me that they had got info from it. It was just a suggestion

Oh no disparagement of you my dear - I know you were just trying to be helpful - my apologies for not acknowleding that in the frst place. I would just recommend never using one of those shows as any kind of reference guide. Way too biased and sensationalised.

[dormouse]

Titania, I completely agree with you & that is why I want to try to educate her. She is reasonably young & my MIL is very pro-circ which doesn't help matters. I do, however, believe that it is a personal choice, but I want her to make the decision based on facts & not the myths that fly around about circumcision.
All the google searches I've done seem to only bring up anti-circ info & I don't want to just spam her with articles that tell her not to do it in case she gets her back up & feels as though I'm pressing my opinions onto her.

Thanks for all your help so far!

[mum2_1]

Titania, on 15 April 2010 - 09:40 PM, said:

Oh no disparagement of you my dear - I know you were just trying to be helpful - my apologies for not acknowleding that in the frst place. I would just recommend never using one of those shows as any kind of reference guide. Way too biased and sensationalised.

oh don't worry hun - no offence taken i'm tired and probably a little more blunt than usual I tend to listen to those shows info but kinda take it with a grain of salt

[Titania]

Ok, I'm going to bed now - but I'll try and find a minute tomorrow to research some objective info.

I don't believe it is a personal choice - the baby can't speak for himself - and if he could - do you think he'd be saying "sure, go ahead, chop the skin off my penis - with no anaesthetic - I can take the pain and the bleeding" - how can it be a personal choice? ( I can keep me out of it lol) - But it is simply an ancient tradition, based on religion and superstition. It's barbaric, uncessary - and unconscionably cruel. I, for one, want to see it illegalised.

[dormouse]

If anyone can find a good video, I would love that too!

[tashmcnaddict]

im very anti circumcision and had many arguments with my mother over it , but there is plenty of info out there

show her some of the videos on it roaming the net .......she might change her mind

[tashmcnaddict]

****** WARNING VERY GRAPHIC DONT WATCH THIS IF EASILY UPSET ******








heres a link to one


heres another with pros and cons


you can search and find heaps but alot are very graphic, im easily upset by it and grit my teeth i think its cruel among other things but its up to the indiviual i guess , i really hope they can make it illegal to do unless its really needed for medical reasons

[vanda]

EB has a circ thread with loads of links

[Peace]

Yeah Bubhub has lots of threads on circ with links.

[domesticdragonfly]

Titania, on 15 April 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

Ok, I'm going to bed now - but I'll try and find a minute tomorrow to research some objective info.

I don't believe it is a personal choice - the baby can't speak for himself - and if he could - do you think he'd be saying "sure, go ahead, chop the skin off my penis - with no anaesthetic - I can take the pain and the bleeding" - how can it be a personal choice? ( I can keep me out of it lol) - But it is simply an ancient tradition, based on religion and superstition. It's barbaric, uncessary - and unconscionably cruel. I, for one, want to see it illegalised.

Actually they do do it with anaesthetic these days. So then how do you feel about the pierced ears of babies? They don't get the choice in that and that would hurt with no anaesthetic, done twice, once in both ears, based on the parents desire to show that their baby is a girl, not their personal choice and it would hurt a baby to have its ears pierced for as long as it would take a circumcised boy to heal as well. No-one talks about making that illegal. Btw if you choose to pierce your daughters ears, your choice, I am not against it, but I can't tell another parent that their choice is barbaric and unecessary.

We make a lot of decisions for our children when babies, right or wrong, as they can't, that's our job, we make them in the best interests of our babies.

Just another point of view as I now back out of this potentially emotionally kegfire of a thread and have my morning coffee.

[mokster26]

I saw a journal article relating circumcision to reduced rates of transmission of STDs and AIDS (but it was in Africa where sanitation, hygiene and protection can be huge issues). In Western society I am not sure if there is any research with confirmed definitive benefits. Sometimes uncircumcised boys foreskins can get infected and cause problems but also sometimes boys who do get circumcised get infected and get problems after the procedure. I for one do not see appearance of the penis as a valid enough reason to do the procedure but one of my friends did as she wanted her boy to look like his dad. She had actually changed her views on circumcision when her DS2 came along but then he would have been different from both his dad and brother so she did him too. No-one else I know has got it done - it is not very common nowdays and that is also something to consider - is she okay with the possibility her boy might look different to the other boys at school etc.

This is a plain fact sheet with no bias http://www.betterhea...es/Circumcision
this is older (1996) but quite a definitive position from australasian assocn paediatric surgeons http://www.cirp.org/...tatements/aaps/

[Kobi]

There have been some interesting studies and findings published by the World Health Organisation lately, maybe try googling them.

or this site has some pro-circ info and research: Info

Edited by Kobi, 16 April 2010 - 06:47 AM.

[fairystar]

I thought it was only done for religious reasons or medical reasons???
I dont know anyone who has had it done..

Just to say though i have had 3 boys
"i dont wana be cleaning my little mans bizzy bits till hes bigger".

this has never happened

my dad is one of 4 boys and my DH one of 3 boys and their mums wouldnt of done either....

[melandem]

Just another point of view as I now back out of this potentially emotionally kegfire of a thread and have my morning coffee.
[/quote]


you made me laugh out loud into my coffee.....

[trin_007]

I read this interesting article/comment on the subject recently:

http://womanuncensor...rcumcision.html

[Titania]

domesticdragonfly, on 16 April 2010 - 04:22 AM, said:

Titania, on 15 April 2010 - 09:56 PM, said:

Ok, I'm going to bed now - but I'll try and find a minute tomorrow to research some objective info.

I don't believe it is a personal choice - the baby can't speak for himself - and if he could - do you think he'd be saying "sure, go ahead, chop the skin off my penis - with no anaesthetic - I can take the pain and the bleeding" - how can it be a personal choice? ( I can keep me out of it lol) - But it is simply an ancient tradition, based on religion and superstition. It's barbaric, uncessary - and unconscionably cruel. I, for one, want to see it illegalised.

Actually they do do it with anaesthetic these days. So then how do you feel about the pierced ears of babies? They don't get the choice in that and that would hurt with no anaesthetic, done twice, once in both ears, based on the parents desire to show that their baby is a girl, not their personal choice and it would hurt a baby to have its ears pierced for as long as it would take a circumcised boy to heal as well. No-one talks about making that illegal. Btw if you choose to pierce your daughters ears, your choice, I am not against it, but I can't tell another parent that their choice is barbaric and unecessary.

Actually it is still frequently done without anaesthetic. Yes, even here in Australia. Particularly amongst the Jewish culture.

Yes, and I'm certainly not a fan of earpiercing for babies either! It's less drastic (and painful) than snipping off (or biting as some do) a foreskin - but it's another discussion.

[kazza02]

My SIL had it done for my nephew, she went to a private surgeon (only 1 of 2 in our area who still did elective circumcisions), I think it was about $600 and I'm not exactly sure of the reasons but I believe one was to be the same as his Dad.. I always thought it was just something that was done, my brother, Dad and DH are all circumsized so to me it's "normal" I guess, but not having boys I'm thankful I don't have that decision to make..

Edited by kazza02, 16 April 2010 - 11:03 AM.

[SusanKP]

well I do have a boy and its a really hard decision. I was for it in the beginning but now since he has been into the world I do not want to. We even looked into pead surgens and yes there are some who do it here in Perth and no you do not need a medical reason (at least here).

The reasons why I was going to do it was:

to be the same as his dad.
apparently the HPV is not as easily transmitted onto girls (which I had and 'nearly' had cervical cancer due to having HPV) if the male is circumcised.

The reasons why I am not doing it now:

its natural and I cannot do that to my son

[Titania]

Good for you Susan. I just want to say - I don't believe that there is really much of a difference wrt HPV. I had the first stages of cervical cancer - had laser treatment and I was lucky. The person I'd had sex with was circumcised.

Also - speaking of sex - it's a common misconception that a circumcised penis is different to non-circumcised during lovemaking. There's really no difference when a penis is erect. Just thought I'd mention that.

Another point is that - an uncircumcised penis is more sensitive during sex - and much more enjoyable for the man - allegedly. Apparently men who have been circumcised do not experience orgasm in the same intense way.

[SusanKP]

Titania, on 16 April 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

Good for you Susan. I just want to say - I don't believe that there is really much of a difference wrt HPV. I had the first stages of cervical cancer - had laser treatment and I was lucky. The person I'd had sex with was circumcised.

well come to think of it, the person who 'I think' I got it from was circumcised anyway so really I do not think there is any difference. I just think now I cannot do it to him. It was a different story before I had him.
Yes I had the lezt procedure where the burn the part of the cervix off (luckily I did not need the cone procedure).

[Lani]

QUOTE "i dont wana be cleaning my little mans bizzy bits till hes bigger".

I don't get it..... why would she be wanting to clean his penis when he's bigger anyway?

DS has had problems with infections in the past due to some phimosis, I have never had to clean his foreskin as such nor have I had to pull it back fully, just enough to administer medicated creams. Otherwise I leave it alone. Your SIL needs to learn more about the self cleaning properties of a penis rather than have her son circumsised for an erroneous belief.

[Nina*B]

I think the fact thats its difficult to find a doctor to do it is pretty good proof - a friend had it done to her son 'to be like his dad' and the poor baby screamed the place down for 2 hours afterwards, got a uti (if thats what its called in boys) and got an infection as well.

Even though its not your sisters argument the one of 'to be like dad' annoys me cos I reckon most boys are going to see penises of other boys their own age rather than their dads.

[Titania]

Lani, on 16 April 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

QUOTE "i dont wana be cleaning my little mans bizzy bits till hes bigger".

I don't get it..... why would she be wanting to clean his penis when he's bigger anyway?

DS has had problems with infections in the past due to some phimosis, I have never had to clean his foreskin as such nor have I had to pull it back fully, just enough to administer medicated creams. Otherwise I leave it alone. Your SIL needs to learn more about the self cleaning properties of a penis rather than have her son circumsised for an erroneous belief.

Most eloquent indeed.

[domesticdragonfly]

Ok at the risk of being branded barbaric, my ds is circumcised. The reasons for this decision are between my dh and I. We talked about it while pregnant and that was the choice we came to. He was done when only a couple of days old, with an anaesthetic by, ironically, a Jewish doctor. After having it done I experienced on heck of a mother guilt trip, although it also coincided with day 3 for me. However I am glad that we had him done, so to speak. He healed really well with no infections. Now you may think that this is cruel and unecessary, and that is fine you are entitled to your opinion, but it was our choice and we choose to make it in this way. If my ds chooses to get angry at me for having made the choice to snip off the end of his penis, so be it, but then he can also get angry at me for the controlled crying and the smacking and all the other decision I will make for him that may, in the long run may not have been the best for him, although at the time I made them with his best intentions in mind, with the resources I had at that time also.

I realize that I may be the lone voice here, but when it comes down to it, the original post was for unbiased information for a friend, and a fair bit of this has been about how horrible it is to do this to your son etc. I am just presenting the other side of the coin of someone who has made the choice to have their son circumcised.

FWIW I have a friend who has 4 boys, all through the public health system, who advocate against circumcision, which I think is wrong as it is a choice that the parents should be making and they shouldn't be swayed, but presented with all the unbiased facts, pros and cons. She didn't have any of her boys done and now wishes that she had. She thought about it for the 4th boy but decided against it as he would then be different than his brothers.

Let the stoning begin.....

[Titania]

Quote

"I am just presenting the other side of the coin of someone who has made the choice to have their son circumcised."

I understand, and no offence intended - but you are really not presenting the other side of the coin - because you are not going into the reasons behind it (or 'for' it, should I say).

Many people are presenting the cons - but you are not presenting the pros. That's not a request for you to do so, just pointingit out.

[Kobi]

domesticdragonfly, on 17 April 2010 - 05:55 AM, said:

Ok at the risk of being branded barbaric, my ds is circumcised. The reasons for this decision are between my dh and I. We talked about it while pregnant and that was the choice we came to. He was done when only a couple of days old, with an anaesthetic by, ironically, a Jewish doctor. After having it done I experienced on heck of a mother guilt trip, although it also coincided with day 3 for me. However I am glad that we had him done, so to speak. He healed really well with no infections. Now you may think that this is cruel and unecessary, and that is fine you are entitled to your opinion, but it was our choice and we choose to make it in this way. If my ds chooses to get angry at me for having made the choice to snip off the end of his penis, so be it, but then he can also get angry at me for the controlled crying and the smacking and all the other decision I will make for him that may, in the long run may not have been the best for him, although at the time I made them with his best intentions in mind, with the resources I had at that time also.

I realize that I may be the lone voice here, but when it comes down to it, the original post was for unbiased information for a friend, and a fair bit of this has been about how horrible it is to do this to your son etc. I am just presenting the other side of the coin of someone who has made the choice to have their son circumcised.

FWIW I have a friend who has 4 boys, all through the public health system, who advocate against circumcision, which I think is wrong as it is a choice that the parents should be making and they shouldn't be swayed, but presented with all the unbiased facts, pros and cons. She didn't have any of her boys done and now wishes that she had. She thought about it for the 4th boy but decided against it as he would then be different than his brothers.

Let the stoning begin.....

I'm the same - we had both our boys done, with no problems at all, they did not experience any pain (in that they did not cry or seem in any discomfort during or after the procedure) or have any complications. I have also experienced a bit of guilt due to the biased view of this procedure, but I now know i have done the right thing for both our boys, and if we have any more they will be done as well.

DH and I are both in the medical profession, and we have seen first hand some of the horrendous complications that can happen when boys are not circumcised. If the penis is not cleaned properly the foreskin can adhere to the penis and block off the urethra, meaning the child can not wee and the bladder gets fuller and fuller, causing immense pain and so an emergncy circumcision has to be performed, this is only one example there a few other conditions that can occur. And although they only happen rarely we did not want to take that risk, and the risks from complications from being circumcised outweighed the many benefits in our opinion. It reduces the risk of phimosis, inflammation and infection of the penis, greatly reduces the risk of UTI's, and there are reduced instances of penile and prostate cancer in circumcised men.

There is also a lot of new research that has been done regarding the reduced risks of most STD's (Syphlis, Genital Wart's,Chlamydia), HIV, HPV, UTI's and cancers in men who have been circumcised and the sexual partners of men who are circumcised, so much so that the World Health Organisation is now thinking about recommending the procedure - and we know how everyone loves to spout off about the WHO and breastfeeding for two years or more, what will people say when they are recommending circumcision?

Also in regard to sex research has proven that sexual function and sensation are the same or better in circumcised men.

But I believe it's each to his own - you need to do your own research and come to the best outcome for your own little boy, be it circumcised or not.

[Titania]

Kobi, on 17 April 2010 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'm the same - we had both our boys done, with no problems at all, they did not experience any pain (in that they did not cry or seem in any discomfort during or after the procedure) or have any complications. I have also experienced a bit of guilt due to the biased view of this procedure, but I now know i have done the right thing for both our boys, and if we have any more they will be done as well.

DH and I are both in the medical profession, and we have seen first hand some of the horrendous complications that can happen when boys are not circumcised. If the penis is not cleaned properly the foreskin can adhere to the penis and block off the urethra, meaning the child can not wee and the bladder gets fuller and fuller, causing immense pain and so an emergncy circumcision has to be performed, this is only one example there a few other conditions that can occur. And although they only happen rarely we did not want to take that risk, and the risks from complications from being circumcised outweighed the many benefits in our opinion. It reduces the risk of phimosis, inflammation and infection of the penis, greatly reduces the risk of UTI's, and there are reduced instances of penile and prostate cancer in circumcised men.

There is also a lot of new research that has been done regarding the reduced risks of most STD's (Syphlis, Genital Wart's,Chlamydia), HIV, HPV, UTI's and cancers in men who have been circumcised and the sexual partners of men who are circumcised, so much so that the World Health Organisation is now thinking about recommending the procedure - and we know how everyone loves to spout off about the WHO and breastfeeding for two years or more, what will people say when they are recommending circumcision?

Also in regard to sex research has proven that sexual function and sensation are the same or better in circumcised men.

Interesting post Kobi.

WHO already recommend the procedure in Sub-Saharan African countries - because of its assistance in reducing HIV.
But I'd love to know where you are getting your info regarding WHO thinking about now recommending it on a general basis?

"Also in regard to sex research has proven that sexual function and sensation are the same or better in circumcised men."

Can you provide the links to this research? I've read a lot of (mostly anecdotal) evidence to the contrary.

And in WHO's major study on it, they say:

"There is debate about the role of the foreskin, with
possible functions including keeping the glans moist
(92), protecting the developing penis in utero (73),
or enhancing sexual pleasure due to the presence
of nerve receptors (93)."

and

"The impact of circumcision on sexual function has
not been systematically reviewed, and remains
unclear due to substantial biases in many studies"

WHO themselves have conducted research into the pain of circumcision and they have found that
"many newborns are circumcised without pain management."
http://apps.who.int/...ws/cd004217/en/

My boys both saw respected paediatrician Dr. Annie Lim - and she checked their foreskins to make sure that they would be easily retractable in later years.
She told me that it is usually only boys who have difficulties with retraction who have any problems.

All of the following is taken form WHO's Major study on Circumcision. I can't provide the link - it's a PDF - but anyone can download it from their site.
My bolds.


The most frequent medical reason for male circumcision
is phimosis – a stricture of the foreskin that narrows
the opening and prevents it from being retracted
to uncover the glans. In the United Kingdom from
1997 to 2003, 90% of medically indicated circumcisions
were for phimosis (109). Phimosis may be
currently overdiagnosed (110) and there was a 23%
reduction in the number of circumcisions performed
for phimosis during this period (from 11 501 in 1997
to 8866 in 2003), possibly due to greater awareness
of overdiagnosis or to availability of alternative treatment
by corticosteroids (111, 112).

However, few
studies have assessed the degree of penile hygiene
among uncircumcised men.

In the industrialized world, routine neonatal circumcision
is not recommended by national paediatric
societies, including those of Australia, Canada,
Finland, New Zealand and the United States of
America, for the prevention of these conditions (74,
138–141), because the risks are judged to outweigh
the benefits.



Of 200 boys circumcised
in Australia (mean age 2 years 4 months),
the overall complication rate was much higher at
15.5% (31/200). The main complication was bleeding
(9 mild, 4 moderate, 1 unknown degree), and
meatal ulcer (7 cases) (163). Again, rates were highest
among the less experienced doctors.

2.6 Summary
Male circumcision is medically indicated for only a
few conditions. There is substantial evidence that circumcised
men have a lower risk of some reproductive
tract infections, as well as penile cancer, but some of
these conditions are rare while others are uncommon
or treatable, and routine neonatal circumcision is not
currently recommended on medical grounds.

[randmdavidson]

For those in the medical profession, labial fusion is a very common occurance in little girls, and uti's are nearly always a complication - I have a friend who has both of her girls with this condition, and constant UTI's. So why don't they just snip the labia off to prevent uti's?

Correct cleaning and teaching your son to care for his penis is paramount to preventing UTI's or infections. It is not the 'uncircumsised penis' that causes the problems. It's MEANT to be there.

Also on the subject of anaesthetic, I was recently in a private hospital having bub 3, and the lady next to me was having her son 'done'. The screaming was horrendous, just awful, I had to take my baby and leave the ward, it was done in the room. I asked my midwife if anaesthetic is used, in this case it wasn't. She said it depends on the doctor. Just wanted to point out that the use of 'anaesthetic thesedays' is NOT routine.

T we are of the same mind. I agree with your earlier comment, it should be illegalised.

Edited by randmdavidson, 17 April 2010 - 08:59 AM.

[domesticdragonfly]

Titania, on 17 April 2010 - 06:38 AM, said:

Quote

"I am just presenting the other side of the coin of someone who has made the choice to have their son circumcised."

I understand, and no offence intended - but you are really not presenting the other side of the coin - because you are not going into the reasons behind it (or 'for' it, should I say).

Many people are presenting the cons - but you are not presenting the pros. That's not a request for you to do so, just pointingit out.

No you are right I am not presenting the pros of it, I am just coming from the point of view of someone who has had the procedure done on their son, the flip-side if you will. Our reasons are personal and I don't think I want to put them out there for debate, however I think it comes down to personal choice on behalf of the parent. For some parents this is the necessary evil, it needs to be done due to infections etc that there child may have experienced. What would happen then if circumcision was banned, and the child had significant damage to the penis over a length of time due to the infections, which could have been prevented with this procedure? However ultimately it is the choice of the parent to make that decision and I don't think that choice should be taken away from them or made to feel bad because they want to or did have it done. I think the facts, pros and cons should be given to the parents and their own decisions respected. See to me this is like abortion,(ohhh could get me in trouble), I would like to see that made illegal (my opinion only, no judgement to anyone who has gotten it done, it is your own personal choice), but I would be shot down in flames for suggesting that, and told that it is the mother's right to her own body, etc. Yet there is a big outrage about circumcision. It is all about the right information and the parents right to choose.

[randmdavidson]

Quote

What would happen then if circumcision was banned, and the child had significant damage to the penis over a length of time due to the infections, which could have been prevented with this procedure?

This suggests that all uncircumcised boys will get infections and have damage to their penises. I don't think anyone is saying to ban circumcisions if it is medically indicated in rare cases of infections or phimosis. It is about routine unnecessary circumcisions at birth.

[Titania]

domesticdragonfly, on 17 April 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

What would happen then if circumcision was banned, and the child had significant damage to the penis over a length of time due to the infections, which could have been prevented with this procedure? However ultimately it is the choice of the parent to make that decision and I don't think that choice should be taken away from them or made to feel bad because they want to or did have it done. I think the facts, pros and cons should be given to the parents and their own decisions respected. Yet there is a big outrage about circumcision. It is all about the right information and the parents right to choose.

I think circumcision should be allowed for true medical reasons only. And according to WHO - there is actually only one absolute (I'll have to find it again)...
And as they say "routine neonatal circumcision is not
currently recommended on medical grounds."

So it shouldn't be about the parent's right to choose. IMO the parent's DON'T have any right to choose (where there is no medical indication). The only person who has the right to choose for whatever other reason - social etc - is the child themselves- and you can bet, when they get to the age of being able to make an informed decision for themselves, the majority would choose not to.

But, I'll try and desist - we'll just go around in circles.

[domesticdragonfly]

Titania, on 17 April 2010 - 09:38 AM, said:

domesticdragonfly, on 17 April 2010 - 09:20 AM, said:

What would happen then if circumcision was banned, and the child had significant damage to the penis over a length of time due to the infections, which could have been prevented with this procedure? However ultimately it is the choice of the parent to make that decision and I don't think that choice should be taken away from them or made to feel bad because they want to or did have it done. I think the facts, pros and cons should be given to the parents and their own decisions respected. Yet there is a big outrage about circumcision. It is all about the right information and the parents right to choose.

I think circumcision should be allowed for true medical reasons only. And according to WHO - there is actually only one absolute (I'll have to find it again)...
And as they say "routine neonatal circumcision is not
currently recommended on medical grounds."

So it shouldn't be about the parent's right to choose. IMO the parent's DON'T have any right to choose (where there is no medical indication). The only person who has the right to choose for whatever other reason - social etc - is the child themselves- and you can bet, when they get to the age of being able to make an informed decision for themselves, the majority would choose not to.

But, I'll try and desist - we'll just go around in circles.

You're right, I was just thinking about the fact that this is a circle debate that will have no end, while hanging out the washing. You get into a grey area when you talk about the parent's right to choose vs the child's rights and again it is a debate that has no end as everyone has a different point of view depending on various factors influencing you as you grew up. I guess in the end we all have strong opinions on certain subjects but I think ultimately we need to respect each individual's right to make decisions for themselves and their children that have their best interests in mind. Whether or not we agree on those "best interests" is non applicable. I think making it illegal is wrong, but the way things are going it is becoming more and more rare to actually hear about a circumcised boy, maybe that is the way of the future, who knows, but until then we need to give unbiased information for people to make their own decisions. Then again, talking about things that we would like to be made illegal is another never-ending topic as again everyone has different views. My ds may be unhappy that we had him done as a baby, I will wear the consequences of that, but until then in my mind we made the right decision.

I'll bow out now as there is really not much more that can be said by me. No hard feelings ladies, just differing views

[fairystar]

WOW
I had no idea that people chose to get their sons done without a medical reason, I must be so ignorant

I truley had never heard of anyone getting it done to look like their dad or just because I thought it was a medical thing or religious thing, I am really shocked and suprised, Oh well you learn things every day I guess, perhaps where I come from it has never been discussed and I have never met anyone who had it done so never really though about it...

Oh and this isnt disrespecting anyone I am truly honestly suprised..

[4Cherubs]

My 2 brothers are done. DH isn't & my 2 DSs aren't. We didn't feel it was necessary plus the thought of them cutting it off with no pain relief! Don't believe in girls getting their ears pierced until they understand either. JMO.

Why did circ come about? Jews have always done it (haven't they?). They did it when boys went to war? Just wondering as every boy baby is born with foresking..

Edited by 4Cherubs, 17 April 2010 - 10:41 AM.

[Titania]

4Cherubs, on 17 April 2010 - 10:40 AM, said:

My 2 brothers are done. DH isn't & my 2 DSs aren't. We didn't feel it was necessary plus the thought of them cutting it off with no pain relief! Don't believe in girls getting their ears pierced until they understand either. JMO.

Why did circ come about? Jews have always done it (haven't they?). They did it when boys went to war? Just wondering as every boy baby is born with foresking..

The Hebrew Bible - The Abrahamic Covenant - Genesis 17.

11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant
14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

[4Cherubs]

So it's done because the Jews did it? Should read foreskin, not sking.

[domesticdragonfly]

Not always. It was originally done as a covenant between the Jews and God as a way of setting them apart as His chosen people, ie, they would now be different to other peoples. Thus I imagine the Jews have carried on with this tradition. Also from a hygiene point of view, imagine living in the dessert with the sand, the wind, no running water etc, the cutting off of the foreskin would have made hygiene easier for the males. Although some may debate that point. These days however there are many and varied reasons why people get it done, religious, medical, cosmetic, tradition etc. They ways of cutting off the foreskin is many and varied as well I would imagine. It was more popular in my father's day than now as people no longer want to, or don't event think about it when their babies are born.

Oh and I said I was going to back out of this one......naughty.

[Titania]

Muslims too.

[domesticdragonfly]

Titania, on 17 April 2010 - 11:32 AM, said:

Muslims too.

I'd imagine so as the Muslims came about as an offshoot of the Jewish race, when Abraham had Ishmael, Ishmael would have been circumcised as a baby, makes sense really.

[Kobi]

Just some of the research articles that we consulted when making our decision:

(Sorry there are so many, but I am married to a perfectionist Doctor who is very thorough!)

1. Hammond T. 1999. A preliminary poll of men circumcised in infancy or childhood. BJU Int 83:85–92.
2. Moses S, Bailey RC, Ronald AR. 1998. Male circumcision: assessment of health benefits and risks. Sex Transm Inf 74:368–373.
3. BrykF.1882.CircumcisioninManandWoman-ItsHistory,Psychology and Ethnology. (Die Beschneidung bei Mann und Weib), pp. 174–177. Berger D, German translator. 1934. New York: American Ethnological Press; 1882. 342 p.
4. National Center for Health Statistics of the Department of Health and Human Services. 2003. Trends in Circumcisions Among Newborns http://www.cdc.gov/n.../circumcisions/ circumcisions.htm.
5. Stang HJ, Snellman LW. 1998. Circumcision practice patterns in the United States. Pediatrics 101:E51–E56.
6. Nelson CP, Dunn R, Wan J, Wei JT. 2005. The increasing incidence of newborn circumcision: data from the nationwide inpatient sample. J Urol 173:978–981.
7. Xu F, Markowitz L, Sternberg M, Aral S. 2006. Prevalence of circumcision in men in the United States: data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), 1999–2002. XVI Interna- tional AIDS Conference:Abstract no. TUPE0395.
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Hope this helps the OP

Edited by Kobi, 17 April 2010 - 02:56 PM.

[4Cherubs]

Wow, that is a lot of links!

[Kobi]

4Cherubs, on 17 April 2010 - 11:54 AM, said:

Wow, that is a lot of links!

Yep, sorry - my DH wanted to be very well informed and he knows where to look to get the right info and who to ask.

[MLM]

fairystar267, on 17 April 2010 - 10:29 AM, said:

WOW
I had no idea that people chose to get their sons done without a medical reason, I must be so ignorant

I truley had never heard of anyone getting it done to look like their dad or just because I thought it was a medical thing or religious thing, I am really shocked and suprised, Oh well you learn things every day I guess, perhaps where I come from it has never been discussed and I have never met anyone who had it done so never really though about it...

Oh and this isnt disrespecting anyone I am truly honestly suprised..

Do you ask every man you meet?
I bet you $50 you know at least 10 men who are circ
But any hoo what I wanted to say was "farking fark fark" Kobi, thats one hell of a list.......